Morrissey 2006.12.18 Hamburg

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DavidA

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Post 21-Dec-2006 22:44

[Quote]

The effort it takes to bootleg a concert is beyond what i would be prepared to do. In its simplest form you need to sacrifice your own enjoyment of the gig in order to record something for others.
If that same bootlegger has one condition, whatever it is, isn't it common courtesy to adhere to it if you download it? I mean, lossless vs lossy aside, isn't it just plain polite to keep up your side of the bargain?
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Demian

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Post 22-Dec-2006 02:11 (after 3 hours)

[Quote]

To monsterH:
Yes, there is a way to get FLAC into your iPod... (if you change to the Rockbox firmware)
You might have a look here:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WhyRockb...tures_of_Rockbox
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/FeatureComparison#Apple
Regards,
Demian
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Sictransitgloriamundi

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Post 22-Dec-2006 10:26 (after 8 hours)

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"If that same bootlegger has one condition, whatever it is, isn't it common courtesy to adhere to it if you download it? I mean, lossless vs lossy aside, isn't it just plain polite to keep up your side of the bargain?"
You have failed to sufficiently explain why there even needs to be a demand such as "you cannot convert bootlegs to MP3, and share to others who would prefer the show in MP3." Since the FLAC show has already been posted, and circulated on the internet, the fact that it gets converted into MP3 should be of no concern to anyone. There are programs that can confirm whether it is MP3 or not. Either way, you will need to have that confirmation, since people could simply lie. MP3's existing won't change that.
Stating that the music sharing communities are being "polluted with MP3's" is your own opinion. To believe that others should toe the line with your interests is nothing short of arrogant.
The true spirit of sharing is, well sharing unconditionally. There should not be a list of demands. It was their decision to record the concert, and once it hits the internet in any form, it will be tampered with. You're learning the same naive lesson that record companies have. This audiophile bullying is outrageous. I mean, the audacity. It's comical how angry you guys get about this.
Just because a bootlegger makes a request, doesn't mean that I have to go by it, if I deem it unreasonable. Either way you cut it, they recorded the show because THEY wanted a copy of it. The sharing aspect is merely a ride on the way home. So, to adorn the whole bootlegging process with a sense of martyrdom, is silly.
Lossless/Audiophiles are a cult, and like most cults they want to engineer the world to function for their preferences only.
Lossless and MP3 can coexist people. It's not an either/or scenario. You'll live if one of your live audience recordings mistakenly has a little bit of compression added to it. In fact, studies have been done on the whole debate, and they overwhelmingly proved that the difference is negligible. You guys act as if the lot of you is listening to this shit on expensive hi-fi systems.
Anyhow, I'm sure the typical response is, "Dude, trust me, you have to be deaf not to hear the difference." Well, I guess there are officially a lot of deaf people enjoying MP3's out there. The miracle of science.
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Sictransitgloriamundi

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Post 22-Dec-2006 10:50 (after 23 minutes)

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"its just silly to try and make out there's no difference in audio quality between lossy and lossless formats, and that music doesn't become more enjoyable if the sound quality is better."
You are clearly unaware that double blind studies have been done, and this was not proven to any meaningful degree. So, you can either accept that this is your particular perception, or deny the science.
More importantly, the entire subject of whether or not music becomes less enjoyable through compression can absolutely not be proven. It is a purely subjective. Most people don't sit and listen to music to try and hear all of the potential defects in the compression. Only audiophiles who tend to care more about equipment and frequency analysis, actually care.
Also, the example that you gave is what they call a "bad analogy." To compare the potential loss of some subjective, mystical element in MP3 compression, to some low-fi cover of the same song, is so obviously absurd, that I can't believe that you actually used it. You don't provided a horrible analogy and then say, "okay, well, extreme example."
Finally, for the person claiming that they could hear the quality of an old MP3 conversion, well, clearly if you're getting gaps from your conversion, then it was a bad conversion.
The point is, if someone cannot hear the difference, or even care if there is a difference, then how could anyone possibly say that their enjoyment is being diminished? How much more enjoyment in the music is considered sufficient enjoyment? What, instead of tapping your feet, you dance around the room?
It's an obviously absurd debate.
Lastly, don't speak to me about arrogance. I take this tone because of the way in which lossless wackos respond to the evidence, and to the debate in general. If there was ever a more righteous group of people, then it's the lossless crowd. I'm just sick of seeing the bullying.
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steve

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Post 22-Dec-2006 10:58 (after 8 minutes)

[Quote]

you do talk a lot of crap.
Lossless/Audiophiles are a cult
People who claim they can't hear the difference between mp3 and lossless have never really listened. They do not want to believe ... they are sleeping!
n fact, studies have been done on the whole debate, and they overwhelmingly proved that the difference is negligible
And this is just simply not true. If you can provide a single link to any study that shows this I will be extremely surprised. In fact quite the opposite is shown in all the studies I've seen.
Mp3 was a neccessary evil that was introduced because hard disk technology wasn't sufficeintly advanced to accomodate lossless audio.
But now it is. Unfortunately there are still plenty of ignorant idiots like you out there who insist that mp3's are wonderful ... who needs the extra quality. So then we get places like iTunes offering downloads in only lossy formats (for the same price as lossless CDs) and the ignorant consumer just accepts this. If people just accept crap, what's to stop the record comapnies deciding that lossy audio is all they need to provide.
You obviously have a huge chip on your shoulder against 'audiophiles'. Do you think the musicans themselves are not audiophiles. If they all decided that a song is a song like you ... prehaps they should just take a cassette recorder down to a gig and record their albums that way. After all, who would be able to tell the difference.
You are rude and ungreatful. You put down bootleggers, call them facists and evil. While at the same time downloading their efforts for your own pleasure.
You are a prime example of why many good bootleggers don't circulate their recordings, and why a lot of the best audio recordings and films and not available to the average fan. If you treat them like shit, they'll make sure you don't get their recordings.
If you don't have the manners to respect someone's quite reasonable requests, then do somewhere else for your downloads
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steve

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Post 22-Dec-2006 11:24 (after 25 minutes)

[Quote]

You are clearly unaware that double blind studies have been done, and this was not proven to any meaningful degree. So, you can either accept that this is your particular perception, or deny the science.
If you are going to try using science, then do it properly. You arogantly assume that everyone else is a 'wacko' and ignorant. Of course I'm aware of double blind tests .... in fact this is the staple diet of most audiophiles. However ... if you are going to use them as a basis for your argument, you have to provide a link to the particular studies you talking about.
A double blind test result is not what some deaf old goat says on an internet forum.
I've done a quick search on google, and there really don't seem to be too many studies of lossless vs lossy compression. But there are loads of studies comapring the various codecs. Here's a good one
http://www.rjamorim.com/test/multiformat128/results.html
These studies seem to accept that lossless is obvioulsy better, and are looking for the lossy codec that comes closest. I would assume that if studies show that people can tell the difference between various lossy codecs that they can also tell the difference between lossy and lossless.
But presumably a lossy file is a lossy file to you. What does it matter what codec or bitrate is used. They all sound the same ... right ? Head in the sand ... fingers in the ears ... yea !!!
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fki

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Post 22-Dec-2006 12:43 (after 1 hour 19 minutes)

[Quote]

Sictransitgloriamundi, please.
If you can not respect the taper's request and you don't like lossless stuff then please, find another sites dealing with mp3 - there are quite a number of them out there.
I'm not angry, I just don't understand you. Okay, you have expressed your opinion (noone seems to agree with you though), but that's enough now.
Believe me, this isn't good for anybody.
Please, just don't press the Reply button. Dead easy.
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racer

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Post 24-Dec-2006 13:15 (after 2 days)

[Quote]

Finally, for the person claiming that they could hear the quality of an old MP3 conversion, well, clearly if you're getting gaps from your conversion, then it was a bad conversion.
actually mp3 codecs add a micro-second gap at the end of each file so its almost impossible to burn a concert from mp3s without hearing that.
It's an obviously absurd debate.
Lastly, don't speak to me about arrogance. I take this tone because of the way in which lossless wackos respond to the evidence, and to the debate in general. If there was ever a more righteous group of people, then it's the lossless crowd. I'm just sick of seeing the bullying.
you remind me of an atheist walking into a church and demanding that everyone there starts supporting atheism. this is a forum for "lossless wackos" isn't it? i mean, nobody forced you to sign up here right?
anyway.. i use mp3s myself, a well encoded mp3 at a high bitrate sounds good enough for me when listening to music on my pc. i won't argue with that. but why take a lossless recording and then share it in a reduced format? that just don't make sense to me. the other thing is, most ppl out there are clueless and when one downloads an mp3, one doesn't know how many times that track has been encoded/burnt to cd/ripped and encoded again etc... i've downloaded some Smiths boots in the past (as mp3's) that sounded absolutely terrible when compared to the lossless versions i was able to get later.
-r
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Sictransitgloriamundi

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Post 25-Dec-2006 02:44 (after 13 hours)

[Quote]

As for being an atheist in a church, well, if I was pressed about my oipnion, I would give it, and anyone who didn't listen would likely be unmovable anyhow, just like on here. The one sad casualty of being a Morrissey fan is that you will generally associate with traditional romantics, who, by definition, don't hold reason in high esteem. It's all about the immediacy of the emotions, and the senses, and anything that contradicts that, well, they'll just make up an argument as they go along.
It's not about appreciation. I appreciate anyone's effort, but I am not merely a dog begging for scraps, who will turn tricks just because you made the effort. Obviously, such a mindset is pathetic.
And I do have a chip on my shoulder in regards to audiophiles. I have a chip on my shoulder for any group of human beings who try to socially engineer. You shouldn't have to create a ransom to get people to align themselves with your cause. Basic logic should suffice. However, my complaint only goes as deep as the insistence on uniformity.
Finally, you have to be kidding about providing evidence, There's plenty. A simple Google search will yield many threads on the topic.
Again listen to the music, and stop fixating on purity. It's an f'ing imperfect bootleg either way you slice it. I agree that one should seek to provide a pure recording, but what happens thereafter is up to the individual, and their needs. You guys remind of those who only consider virtuosity as a primary component of art. It's compulsive, so stop it.
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akiraware

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Post 25-Dec-2006 03:28 (after 43 minutes)

[Quote]

consumer just accepts this. If people just accept crap, what's to stop the record comapnies deciding that lossy audio is all they need to provide.
You obviously have a huge chip on your shoulder against 'audiophiles'. Do you think the musicans themselves are not audiophiles. If they all decided that a song is a song like you ... prehaps they should just take a cassette recorder down to a gig and record their albums that way. After all, who would be able to tell the difference.
You are rude and ungreatful. You put down bootleggers, call them facists and evil. While at the same time downloading their efforts for your own pleasure.
You are a prime example of why many good bootleggers don't circulate their recordings, and why a lot of the best audio recordings and films and not available to the average fan. If you treat them like shit, they'll make sure you don't get their recordings.
If you don't have the manners to respect someone's quite reasonable requests, then do somewhere else for your downloads
I agree with Steve
You can find all "wonderfull MP3s" you like in other sites unfortunately here you will find only "Lossless crap" :twisted:
I myself prefere lossless versions, even in the CDRs trades age I always look for non mp3 sourced stuff to trade.
The difference in quality is easy to listen, and like the Steve explanation a MP3 will never be a lossless again.
I share tons of bootlegs in MP3 format in my website in the last ten years, still today I get much more requests for MP3 than LossLess versions, every time someone ask about lossless I point to here, but much people still use MP3 players without the option to listen Flac in the player others even don´t know what is a "lossless".
Some prefere MP3 because of the download size, for example I live in Brazil and only 15%of population can use a broadband connection, the majority is stuck in the old dialup´s and even to get MP3 is a painfull task.
I make MP3 for widely circulated bootlegs, stuff wich is going hand by hand in the last years and I don´t have a clue about the original taper, anyway I never make MP3 from the stuff downloaded here and accept my appologies if I shared a bootleg taped from someone here without permission.
I will always be gratefull to all tapers here and the wonderfull job done
Please forgive my english :wink:
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monsterH ®

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Post 25-Dec-2006 09:14 (after 5 hours)

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Sictransitgloriamundi - You have a right to your own opinion, but come on, don't insult people (me) speaking from ignorance.
Sictransitgloriamundi wrote:
Finally, for the person claiming that they could hear the quality of an old MP3 conversion, well, clearly if you're getting gaps from your conversion, then it was a bad conversion.
racer wrote:
actually mp3 codecs add a micro-second gap at the end of each file so its almost impossible to burn a concert from mp3s without hearing that.
Have you tried burning a gapless CD from mp3? racer knows it's impossible, so don't try and say that I don't know how to convert to mp3. I've held my tongue until now and even decided to drop it and move forward, but obviously, you CAN'T LET GO. 5 posts with the same sh-t? We know your opinion already, so do us all a favor and give us a Christmas present of moving on and dropping this. Oh, maybe I need to hear your opinion a sixth time!
Merry Christmas
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steve

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Post 25-Dec-2006 09:43 (after 29 minutes)

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Finally, you have to be kidding about providing evidence, There's plenty. A simple Google search will yield many threads on the topic
as usual all talk and no evidence. I posted a link to a study which backed up my case. You haven't beacuse you're too lazy.
Anyway ... hope you enjoy the Wolverhampton Video when your download completes. No doubt you will have to convert it to DivX or somesuch to save some hard disk space ... and as all the studies conclusively show ... just google it, you will find so many ... no one can tell the difference between a DivX video and a DVD. I really hate it when those facist videophiles try to pretend that its more enjoyable to watch a nice crisp dvd picture on a 42 inch plasma screen than watching my nice compressed files on my iPod. I know I can't quite see what's going on that clearly ... but I enjoy it just as much as anyone else. So there !!!!
Happy Christmas !!!
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skyscaper

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Post 28-Dec-2006 18:17 (after 3 days)

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Thanks.
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chelsea_steve

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Post 09-Jan-2007 19:37 (after 12 days)

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Thanks.
I liked this reply the best :D
I's like to say thanks too, for all your hard work & devotion to the cause!
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omsaps

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Post 10-Jan-2007 09:44 (after 14 hours)

[Quote]

Has Anyone done any Artwork for this ??????
I'd do it myself if I could find some photos from the gig .
Anyway , THANX for the Seed , excellant stuff.
Keith.
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